Questions Regarding Submarines

[Yian]

I'm sure there is a good reason for this, but why do military submarines in the movies always use sonar to locate their enemies underwater? In the Hunt for the Red October, the Russians were almost right next to the Americans. I thought, well, if they could just look through some kind of a window, they would know there is a submarine outside right next to them, no matter how quiet they are.

Could some one explain to me why submarines don't have any visual aid underwater?

[Rhenna]

I'm no naval architect, but submarines require a pressure hull. Any opening through this barrier is an obvious potential point of failure. So, this opening needs to have an absolutely vital reason to exist, and as a reliable seal against the water pressure exerted upon it as can be provided. A military submarine needs this in spades, as they sometimes have people testing the integrity of these seals through the use of ill will and high explosives.

Even if you had a porthole to look through, you certainly wouldn't see more than a few feet unless you were very close to the surface and the Sun was present. You couldn't very well start shining high-intensity lights all about when deeper, because doing that simply says, "Shoot me!" Most modern military subs have television cameras integrated in their periscopes, but I rather doubt they function while submerged, or would be very useful if they did.

I remember watching the old Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea reruns as a child that were in syndication on some funky UHF station. The Seaview had a glass bow section, and my uncle, an engineer for Boeing, would explain to me what a load of crap that was. Besides, at least twice every episode, they would get rocked. Sparks would fly, things would catch on fire, and the crew would get tossed left and right. Even at the age of seven, I remember thinking, "Hey, bag this!"

It has been years since I saw The Hunt For Red October, and I don't recall thinking the underwater sequences were horrible or anything. But, I wouldn't give them too much credibility for being authentic, either. If two submarines are both going to be on a movie screen simultaneously, you need to depict them unrealistically close together. Underwater, sonar is pretty much all you have, and the sub with the better passive sonar has a big edge. Using active sonar is another way of saying, "Shoot me!" Actually, more like, "Please, shoot me!"

[schnitzel_bob]

The real question about the Hunt for the Red October is how Sean Connery manages such a seamless Russian accent.

[tisl]

Your geeky submarine discussions have inspired me to watch the film.

[IcedEarth]

Sub go down, sub go up. Never a miscommunication.

You can't explain that!

[Rhenna]

You know, I mean this in the nicest possible way; we should all thank Yian for his continued participation in this moribund excercise we know as Atrip. What would we do without him?

Your geeky submarine discussions have inspired me to watch the film.

If you want to watch a submarine movie, I would recommend the (relatively) little-known K-19: The Widowmaker. This slipped under most people's radar about nine years back, and I don't think it did all that well at the box office. Kathryn Bigelow, of The Hurt Locker fame, (??), directed, and Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford are the major stars. Not a bad flick, all in all.

For some reason, the chrome-plated periscope I recall from the Red October really bothered me when I saw the film at the theatre. Parts of the Control Room had a sort of Las Vegas casino look to it.

The real question about the Hunt for the Red October is how Sean Connery manages such a seamless Russian accent.

I'm not suggesting that The Hunt for the Red October is a bad film, (although Alec Baldwin is a huge minus for me, personally), but Sean Connery is one of those rare actors that, while not always appearing in the finest films, nonetheless rarely fails to give a great performance.

By no means let this derail Yian's U-boat thread, but I must give you what I feel is the definitive Sean Connery photo:

[schnitzel_bob]

Speaking of submarine films, Das Boot.

And I also appreciate Yian's efforts to keep this ship afloat.

[Yian]

Wow, thanks guys. I really just wanted to know why submarines don't have windows. But I'm glad you guys liked my question.

thank s Rhenna. It does make more sense now.

[MadMonk2]

If you want to watch a submarine movie, I would recommend the (relatively) little-known K-19: The Widowmaker. This slipped under most people's radar about nine years back, and I don't think it did all that well at the box office. Kathryn Bigelow, of The Hurt Locker fame, (??), directed, and Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford are the major stars. Not a bad flick, all in all.


The Widowmaker got by me and I haven't seen it yet... I will rectify that. I enjoy Sub movies, especially those that have a tendency to make your anal orifice pull a pretty good vacuum on the chair!
As a 6 yr old, we went to an open house at the naval base (CA) near us and went on and through a few different ships... and a WWII Sub... that I remember well. I guess that is what got me going on the Sub kick. I got to go over to Bangor (Bremerton, WA) years ago and took an extended tour on the Nevada, a Nuclear Trident... still have my Captains cap. :-)
I am a sub sim nut. Have any of you played any of the Silent Hunter series? I have them all. If you haven't played any of the later ones ( 3, 4 or 5), give them a try, with the addons you can get for them, they are very realistic.

[Yian]

Oh, that's right! I have watched the K-19 The Widowmaker before, and yes it was a good film. :)

[Rhenna]

I meant to do this sooner, but my internet connection has been intermittent. Just like my payment to my service provider is about to become...

Just so there isn't any confusion, and we don't need any of that here, there are "windows" sometimes found on certain submarines on their sail. I knew about this and I don't know how I could have failed to mention it, earlier. I guess I need to reread Jane's All The World's Submaines yet again.

There is a space, outside of the pressure hull, in what most people call the conning tower of a submarine, (a term that seems to apply differently depending on the sub under consideration), that sometimes features windows. Presumably, this space affords some protection from the elements such as rough seas and freezing winds, while still providing some visibility to safely manuever the sub while on the surface. I'm not certain, but I don't think any actual equipment is present; probably just a means to speak to the helmsman. And, a cupholder.

I *think* this space floods when the sub submerges, as the various photos depicting these windows don't seem to suggest they are much more than simple armored glass or plexiglass, or some similar material. Certainly nothing that would withstand any meaningful pressure differential. I'm guessing seawater within this space is either pumped out, or, more likely, is simply drained through some simple vent when the sub surfaces.

This is a feature that has pretty much disappeared in submarines of Western design; at least, the nuclear-powered designs. It seems to linger on in many of the Soviet-era subs, and their derivatives. Below is a picture I took while on a ferry in Lake Michigan of the People's Republic of China nuclear attack submarine "Beijing Bopper," cruising along on the surface like they own the goddamn place. (I guess they pretty soon will...)

The overall profile, along with the diving planes mounted on the sail instead of the hull, struck me as being a knock-off of the American "Skipjack" class. The "windows" in the sail are pretty apparent.

The bastards didn't return my wave. If Illinois would have recognized my concealed-carry permit, I would have put some .45 ACP in their arrogant asses.

[Fatty]

You should have swam after it then!