The Muhammad Cartoons

[Digital Pimp]

How do you guys feel about this. I have to agree it wasn't right, edged on blasphemy because of the very fact Muhammad is not supposed to be shown. (At least that's what I've gathered from reading about the issue, due to the danger of idolatry). I know, I know, freedom of the press and all that shit but this was insulting a very important part of a religion. Though I don't think violent rioting and burning of Embassies will help settle the issue any quicker and it really isn't helping to show that Isalam truly is a peaceful religion and only these far out radicals are putting it in a bad light just like any other extremist or radical can do with their Country or Religion.

[Dark_Swordmaster]

Damn. I knew I should've gotten a paper today. But noooo, I decided against it!

WTF are you talkin' 'bout?

[Downfall]

thsi isnt a recent issue, it has been going on for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons for more info

The Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy began after complaints were made about twelve editorial cartoons which depict the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The cartoons were initially printed in the centre right Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten on September 30, 2005. Some of the cartoons have been reprinted in other newspapers in Europe, the United States, New Zealand, and Jordan.

protestors burned and bombed the The Danish Embassy

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Syria_embassy_fire.jpg

[StormyPeak]

The whole point of those cartoons in those papers was to show that every other religion has had fun poked at them...and that it's ridiculous to put the Islam one on a silver platter and say 'no no, can't do that'.

To me...if one is Islamic and did one of those cartoons...then it would be blasphemy. To me, the ONLY people who can commit blasphemy are those who are actually a part of a particular faith and does something that goes against the grain of that faith. If that's the case, then that person's church, or group needs to censor that person...by perhaps excommunication...or what ever. Although, sadly, in some parts of the world, they don't kick offenders out of the group...they stone or behead them....and this is exactly why the world should take a stand against religions trying to dictate to us what we can say or do and what the penalties are for going against their particular teachings.

It's like you or me doing something here that's legal...but illegal in another country... It doesn't apply to us because we are 'here' not 'there'...and I think one has to look at religion in the same way. They cannot just force their will on the rest of us and dictate to us what we can or cannot not do.
To me, it reeks of oppression in it's worse form...freedom of speech needs to be protected from religious zealots.

Stormy

[Downfall]

some more articles on what happened

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/cartoon.protests/index.html

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Thousands of protesters packed the streets of Beirut on Sunday, some clashing with security forces and setting the Danish Consulate on fire in anger over cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed.

The protests prompted the resignation Sunday of Lebanon's Interior Minister, Hassan al-Sabaa.

The protests soon escalated into fights between Muslims and Christians, and some protesters threw rocks at a Maronite Catholic church, bringing back memories of the civil war that once gripped the capital.

The violence came one day after protesters in neighboring Damascus, Syria, torched the Norwegian Embassy and the Danish Embassy, furious that newspapers in both nations had published images banned under Islamic law.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/cartoon.protests/story.glass.ap.jpg




http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/06/cartoon.protests/index.html

(CNN) -- A boycott of Danish goods called by Muslim leaders over the publishing of cartoons of Prophet Mohammad is dealing a blow to the nation's businesses.

Oil giant Iran became the latest nation to impose penalties, saying on Monday it would cut off all trade ties with Denmark. Reuters reported that Iran imports $280 million worth of goods from Denmark a year.

A report on the state-run news agency IRNA said Iranian Commerce Minister Massoud Mirkazemi had stopped trade with Denmark, but certain types of machinery and medicine would be allowed in for another three months.

Iran has withdrawn its ambassador to Denmark as well.

Qatar's Chamber of Commerce said it had halted dealings with Danish and Norwegian delegations, while in Bahrain, parliament formed a committee to contact Arab and Islamic governments to enforce the boycott.

Iraq's transport ministry also said it was severing ties with the Danish and Norwegian governments, a move that includes terminating all contracts with companies based in those countries.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/06/cartoon.protests/story.cartoons.pakistan.ap.jpg




http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/06/denmark.cartoons/index.html

(CNN) -- Denmark's leaders are calling for calm and dialogue as the nation finds itself under increasing pressure over the cartoons depicting Islam's revered Prophet Mohammed.

The government maintains it does not print the newspapers, and reminds Muslims what is meant by freedom of expression.

CNN Senior International Correspondent Matthew Chance gave this perspective from the Danish capital Copenhagen.

Q. What is the situation there now? How are the authorities reacting to the new outbreaks of violence?

A. The authorities are saying they believe this is Islamic extremism that has taken the issue of the 12 cartoons and blown them out of all proportion, misrepresenting what was actually depicted in them. The Danish government has said it regrets the publication in Denmark but stressed it is an independent media in this country and it is not in a position to apologize on behalf of it.

I've just come from the newspaper that first published the 12 cartoons depicting the Muslim Prophet Mohammed. They also say that they regret that overseas there have been violent reactions to them but they stand by their right here in Denmark to draw cartoons about what they want even if that causes offense.

Q. Given the political and economic fallout to all of this, how have Danes been reacting?

A. Many of the 5.5 million people of Denmark have been shocked by the extreme scenes of violence they've been witnessing across the Middle East directed towards their government. It's a nation that seen as having low-profile links with the Middle East. It is not accustomed to seeing its flag burned in the streets. Most say this is an over-reaction, a matter of freedom of speech and the paper did nothing wrong by printing the cartoon.

But they are concerned this issue may make Denmark a target of Muslim extremists in the future. The country already has troops in Iraq and that has led to some insecurity, they believe. They've also been threatened on the air waves by members of al Qaeda, but this has really taken on a new dimension. People in this quiet northern kingdom are feeling quite insecure now.

Q. There have been calls for boycotts of Danish goods across the Middle East. What will the economic fallout of this be?

A. I don't think it's going to make a big impact. Denmark does much more trade with the rest of the world, with Europe, the United States and the Far East. One firm that specializes in dairy products has had to start laying off 100 workers as a result of people aren't buying their goods in the Middle East. Having said that, I think the economic effect is likely to be limited.

But what the government of Denmark is more concerned about is the damage to the international image of their country: a country that they like to see as extremely tolerant and one that has respect for all religious groups. And this row has put a big dent in that image.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/europe/02/06/denmark.cartoons/story.pakistan.ap.jpg



And the first death related to this that i know of that occured today.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/02/06/somalia.protest.ap/index.html

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) -- Police fired in the air Monday to disperse stone-throwing protesters demonstrating over a cartoon deemed offensive to Islam, triggering a stampede in which a teenager was killed in northern Somalia.

Hundreds of protesters threw stones at police and aid workers after attending a peaceful rally in the northern port city of Bossaso, sparking the stampede in which a teenage boy was killed, said businessman Mohamed Ahmed, a witness.

Protests over the cartoon broke out in three other Somali towns, as they have around the Muslim world.


just figured i would give you all some info about the topic for those who may not know about it.

[schnitzel_bob]

Anything I have to say has already been said. Briefly though: Were the cartoons in bad taste? Absolutely. Regardless, freedom of the press is freedom of the press. I don't like Howard Stern, but I don't call for him to be beheaded. If christians were doing the same thing over a caricature of Jesus, my reaction would be the same.

http://www.hill-kleerup.org/blog/2006/02/06/an_open_letter.html

[WhoGivesARatsAss]

Even though I am not of the extremist type but I guess, it serves them right to be treated the way they are (trade cuts and burning down of embassies -- notwithstanding any killing of innocents however). A formal apology with burning of all images that were made and punishment to the creator of those images would suffice.

[farsimon]

they don't deserve an apology! they should be shot for not having a sense of humour. IMO everyone should have right to say what they want as long as it doesn't cause anyone else direct harm.


... and "buring the images" WTF!!! are you from the dark ages or something??

[WhoGivesARatsAss]

Images of living objects are not allowed in Islam. Hence, if an image is made, it has to be burnt so that it does not serve an idolatory purpose (even unwittingly, mistakenly, etc).

As for sense of humor, making fun of someone's beliefs, be it any religion is simply not funny (the same way, that you people keep on making the "so-called" jokes about Prophet Jesus).

Freedom of speech does have boundaries you know. Its the idiotic thinking of a select few that feel that it does not. As for harm, yes it did cause harm, as in made a few million people who were part of a common religion very angry and that, too, justly.

[SuperDavidGT]

I agree with WGARA, and not because I'm playing favourites.

Free speech is great and all, but everyone with half a brain knew what was going to happen if those cartoons were published, and they did it anyway! I think if the muslim world said "OY!" and Denmark said "Oops!", it could have been over quickly. But no, now everybody wants a piece of the pissed-off-muslim pie. It's totally rediculous.

I'm not going to say there is no such thing as free press, hell, I totally agree with it. But free speech does not mean freedom to insult and annoy anybody you want. Well, actually, I guess it does, but if you aren't prepared for the consequences then nobody is going to care when your bloodied and crying.

If that's the case, if that's your logic, then fuck you Farsimon, fuck you up the ass. I hope you die of Hep C and your boyfriend of AIDS.

Ftr, I've never met a muslim that didnt have a sense of humour. I grew up with this kid who'd migrated over from the ME, and he could joke about religion, as long as it was a joke and nothing more. But as soon as kids started ratting on him over September 11, he went apeshit, and I backed him up all the way. Fucking racists.

[farsimon]

If your "belief" is so weak that you get insulted by a foreigner's foreign joke about your religion and your religious icons, then you're just a pathetic retard IMO, because that foreigner in his foreign country could not influence you if you really believed so strongly in your religion in the first place.

And I did not say muslims have no sense of humour, but those that are going so overboard definately sucks bigtime...

and btw, making people angry does not cause them harm...

Just look at what all these gay mongrels are doing these days - they fight for freedom and rights to become an unnatural little "society" of their own, and they make people angry by just existing - so if that's your logic then everyone should be banned for making other people angry, because it harms them... poor people...

[Mechanerd]

Religion and idiots fucking up the world as usual. Nothing new to me.

[Misty]

500 years ago the publishers of the cartoons would have been burned, not some building. And they would have been burned not by muslims, but by christians.

The only difference is those 500 years in which some cultures evolved and some not.

[san_pali]

Religion and idiots fucking up the world as usual. Nothing new to me.


500 years ago the publishers of the cartoons would have been burned, not some building. And they would have been burned not by muslims, but by christians.
The only difference is those 500 years in which some cultures evolved and some not.
Envolved? I think that's a waay BIG word for both cultures. In my modest opinion all the attempts of teaching the intelligent design theory in schools instead of the theory of natural selection doesn't seem very 'envolved'. Neither does the fact that Bush (and many others) are still in charge.
Nor does the shootings at schools.
And the list can easily go on and on.....
Both of them have good and bad things, i don't think one is more 'involved' nor 'better' than the other.

[Misty]

It is a great difference between using molten iron to make heretics confess various sins and bickering about teaching inteligent design in schools. Things have definitely improved. :)

[Downfall]

a nice new update

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/07/iran.cartoon.ap/index.html

for you lazy fucks who wont read the whole thing

A prominent Iranian newspaper says it is going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West will apply the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide against Jews as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

Iran invites cartoons on Holocaust

Tuesday, February 7, 2006; Posted: 6:46 a.m. EST (11:46 GMT)

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- A prominent Iranian newspaper says it is going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West will apply the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide against Jews as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

Hamshahri, which is among the top five of Iran's mass circulation papers, made clear the contest is a reaction to European newspapers' publication of Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, which have led to demonstrations, boycotts and attacks on European embassies across the Islamic world.

Hundreds of Iranians hurled stones, and sometimes gasoline bombs, at the Danish and Austrian embassies in Tehran in protest against the cartoons on Monday. The Austrian mission was targeted as the country currently holds the EU presidency.

The newspaper said Tuesday the contest would be launched on February 13 and would be co-convened by itself and the House of Caricatures, a Tehran exhibition center for cartoons.

Both the paper and the cartoon center are owned by the Tehran Municipality, which is dominated by allies of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is well known for his opposition to Israel.

Last year Ahmadinejad provoked outcries when he said on separate occasions that Israel should be "wiped out" and the Holocaust was a "myth."

Hamshahri invited foreign cartoonists to enter the competition and said it wanted to see how open the West was to caricatures of the Holocaust.

"Does the West extend freedom of expression to the crimes committed by the United States and Israel, or an event such as the Holocaust? Or is its freedom only for insulting religious sanctities?" Hamshahri wrote, referring to the Prophet Mohammed cartoons, in a short article on its back page.

The paper disclosed its plan to hold the competition in an inside page on Monday, saying it would announce details on Tuesday. But Tuesday's edition said the plans would be published next Monday.

Meanwhile, state television reported Tuesday that Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki had called his Danish counterpart, Per Stig Moeller, and urged Copenhagen and other European governments to "compensate for their mistake" in publishing the drawings.

The Foreign Ministry also summoned the Bulgarian ambassador to protest the publication of the prophet cartoons in Bulgarian newspapers, the television said.

The Prophet Mohammed cartoons were first commissioned and published by a Danish newspaper in September. As Muslim protests mounted, numerous European newspapers have reprinted them in recent days in the name of free expression, provoking wider and angrier protests.

The cartoons touched a raw nerve, partly because most Muslims forbid any illustration of the prophet for fear of idolatry and partly because several drawings portrayed Mohammed as a man of violence. One cartoon depicted the prophet as wearing a turban in the shape of a bomb with a burning fuse.

# The West's publication of the Prophet Muhammad cartoons was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over Hamas' win in the Palestinian elections, Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said Tuesday.

Speaking to Iranian air force personnel, Khamenei the cartoons were a scandal, particularly as they came "from those who champion civilization and free expression."

The caricatures amounted to a "conspiracy by Zionists who were angry because of the victory of Hamas," he said, referring to the Palestinian militant group that won a surprise landslide victory in last month's elections.

Khamenei, who has the final word on all matters in Iran's Islamic system, was speaking at a ceremony to mark the air force's decision to join the Islamic revolution in 1979. His speech was broadcast on state radio.




I think making fun of genocide is a bit differnt than making fun of their Prophet.

but, i still stand by the freedom of the press thing. they can print it, it will just be in bad taste. just as it was probably in bad taste to print the cartoons in the first place. Also i think the majority of the U.S. press is being a pussy about it and not re-printing the cartoons.

But it was done and burning/rioting/death threats/and any deaths that have or will occur because of this just makes all of the people involved look like a bunch of damned fools.



but if you aren't prepared for the consequences then nobody is going to care when your bloodied and crying.

they should have expected some sort of large backlash for what they did. i guess they didnt think they would go jihad on their asses.



serious topic, serious posts..:D.hope this discusion can actualy last a while and stay relatively intelegent.

[schnitzel_bob]

The cartoons may be blasphemous in the eyes of Muslims, but what do they think attacking all Danes and burning down the Danish embassy will do? It was a Danish newspaper, not the Danish government, which printed to damn cartoons. Not wanting freedom of the press is one thing, but not recognising the difference between a government and a newspaper smacks of willfull ignorance. Not to mention the whole issue of some muslim leaders using and inciting the angry masses for their purposes.

Shit like this only makes my atheism that much stronger.

Edit: Those have got to be the lamest cartoons I've ever seen.

[LynX]

I dunno.... seems like they're making a mountain out of a molehill. They need to spend more time being productive instead of stirring up violence at the slightest hint of a slight to their beliefs.

After all their religion advocates tolerance, why can't they practice what they preach?

[StormyPeak]

I was also under the impression that those papers printed not just 'muslim cartoons' in the one issue that had like 5 or 6 pages of them, but also cartoons that had things to say about all the other religions.

One cartoon being, that Jesus, Budda, some Hindoo god, and some other gods were sitting on a cloud...looking at Mohammed, saying "Get over, Muhammed, we've all been picked on by the cartoon press before....you're no different...."

And that was the whole point of that freedom of speech exercise. If papers quit printing political cartoons....hell for that matter anything - from articles to letters to the editor, that made people upset...we would have absolutely nothing to read.

Stormy

[tisl]

They really need to get over it. I understand why they're offended, but it's just a cartoon drawn by a Dutch cartoonist. The cartoon was originally drawn for an independent newspaper. If they have a problem with it, they should discuss it with the cartoonist. Burning down one embassy and raiding another doesn't accomplish anything. That reaction is just reinforcing the cartoonist's message of Islam being a terrorist religion. I live around Muslims and I know most of them are just normal people, but unless governments of Muslim countries take the extremist problem seriously and start doing something about it, the world's perception of Islam isn't going to change and terrorism is going to increase. The average person already hates Islam because of all the bombs going off everywhere, this is just going to increase that hatred.

[Downfall]

4 more dead over this

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-07T181958Z_01_L07610770_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-CARTOONS.xml


Tue Feb 7, 2006 6:20 PM GMT17

By Robert Birsel

KABUL (Reuters) - Afghan police killed four people protesting on Tuesday against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad which have unleashed waves of rage and soul-searching across the Muslim world and Europe.

Fresh unrest erupted in the Middle East, Asia and Africa over the drawings, which were first published in Denmark, then Norway and then several other European countries. Some Muslim leaders urged restraint.

In Iran, locked in a nuclear stand-off with the West, a crowd pelted the Danish embassy with petrol bombs and stones for a second day and protesters gathered outside Norway's mission.

The 12 cartoonists whose work touched off the firestorm were reported to be in hiding, frightened, and under police guard. Iran's best-selling newspaper launched a competition to find the best Holocaust cartoon.

Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller called his Iranian counterpart "and demanded in clear terms that Iran does all it can to protect the embassy and Danish lives", a spokesman said. Tehran has cut trade ties with Denmark.

Afghan crowds attacked a base of NATO Norwegian troops with guns and grenades and police opened fire, bringing the death toll in protests against the cartoons to nine.

F-16 warplanes flew overhead in a show of force while the Norwegians fired tear gas, rubber bullets and warning shots, managing to restore order by early evening.

After rioters set Danish missions ablaze in Syria and Lebanon at the weekend, the European Union presidency issued a strongly-worded warning to 19 countries across the Middle East that they were obliged to protect EU missions.

Accusing "radicals, extremist and fanatics" of fanning the flames of Muslim wrath to "push forward their own agenda", Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen repeated a call for dialogue with offended Muslims.

U.S. President George W. Bush called him to express support and solidarity, Rasmussen said. The White House said both leaders "reiterated the importance of tolerance and respect for religions of all faith and freedom of the press".

Depicting the Prophet is prohibited by Islam. Moderate Muslims, while condemning the cartoons, have expressed fears radicals are hijacking debate over the boundary between media freedom and religious respect.

Militants in Iraq have called for the seizure and killing of Danes and the boycott of Danish goods over the cartoons, one of which depicts Mohammad wearing a turban resembling a bomb with a burning fuse.

In London, protesters have brandished placards demanding the beheading of those who insulted Islam. One dressed as a suicide bomber but later apologised.

Copies of a British student paper which reproduced one of the cartoons were hastily shredded and the editor suspended from a student union. A French court however refused to order the confiscation of a magazine which planned to print the images.

"ALLIANCE OF CIVILISATIONS"

Echoing calls for calm by leaders, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said: "I urge all who have authority or influence in different communities ... to engage in dialogue and build a true alliance of civilisations, founded on mutual respect."

Further protests erupted on Tuesday in Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Djibouti, Gaza and Azerbaijan.

At least 10,000 people marched in the Bangladeshi capital and tens of thousands turned out in Niger's capital Niamey to vent their anger. State assembly members in mostly Muslim Kano, northern Nigeria, burnt Danish flags.

Croatia became the latest country where a newspaper printed the drawings. The cartoons have appeared in Australia, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Fiji, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Malaysia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland, United States, Ukraine and Yemen.

Iran, which has withdrawn its ambassador from Denmark, said the cartoons "launched an anti-Islamic and Islamophobic current which will be answered".

A radical Muslim group in Belgium put on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank, a Jewish girl who wrote a wartime diary of hiding from Nazi persecution.

Saudi Arabia's Okaz newspaper rejected violence:

"Violence, spreading chaos and destroying facilities ... only distorts Islam's image, especially after our enemies have tried to label us with so many accusations," it said.

Some Danish Muslims agreed. "Fire and stones are taking things too far," said Copenhagen barber Farzan Khatami.

Denmark's Jyllands-Posten daily has apologised for the cartoons, first published last September. The Danish government has refused to do so, saying it is the paper's responsibility.

[blackjack]

Interesting debate. I'll offer my point of view which might have some relevance cause I'm a Muslim. According to Islam, pictures depicting the Prophet(s) are "haraam" i.e. forbidden. This is a pretty well known fact and yet the Danish newspaper ran the comics. I'm not happy about idiots burning the embassies and other crap but I'm not about to beg forgiveness for it either for whatever thats worth. I don't know about other religions but muslims take such sort of things rather seriously and the Prophet Muhammad is the most revered figure in Islam so this sort of thing should have been expected.

I think the death threats that have been made are stupid and in no way define the general view of muslims. Please remember that a minority of fanatics do not form the entire religious population. An apology and the pulling of the comics should be more than enough pennance.

StormyPeak made an excellent point about the cartoons not being blasphemous to anyone except muslims but I think that even if you do not belong to a certain religion you should respect their beliefs and not antagonize them needlessly, especially a religion that has a billion followers.

That said, freedom of the press is one thing, deliberately baiting and lampooning the holy beliefs of a sect another.

[SuperDavidGT]

:) Thanks blackjack, thats about the smartest and least biased reply I've read in any atrip thread!

Envolved? I think that's a waay BIG word for both cultures. In my modest opinion all the attempts of teaching the intelligent design theory in schools instead of the theory of natural selection doesn't seem very 'envolved'. Neither does the fact that Bush (and many others) are still in charge.
Nor does the shootings at schools.
And the list can easily go on and on.....
Both of them have good and bad things, i don't think one is more 'involved' nor 'better' than the other.

you, my man, are dead on.

religion and evolution dont mix in anyway, hence why they dont believe in one another. and to say christians are more evolved from muslims is a big claim, if not a racist and biggoted one. if christianity has evolved, its because western society has been diluted with many different religions and atheists, and christianity is being forced to become more objective, or else risk something like say, people dying because they mocked islam.

just remember; the bible says the world is flat.

[farsimon]

I think the main reason that this outburst happened wasn't necessarily only because of the religious aspect, but also because the middle east has been trampled on for so long by the west that they have this built in need to defend themselves, and this small event just gave them (those that are involved anyways) a "valid" reason to go ballistic...

[Misty]

... if christianity has evolved, its because western society has been diluted with many different religions and atheists, and christianity is being forced to become more objective, or else risk something like say, people dying because they mocked islam.

just remember; the bible says the world is flat.
I didn't say christianity evolved. I said the western culture (society) evolved. Maybe evolved is not the right word. Progressed is more adequate. And it progressed because religion lost much of its power and influence. If the muslim world would have had the equivalent of the western Renaissance, things would probably be more peaceful now.

[farsimon]

maybe they just don't give a fuck anymore...

[2Lions]

As much as I object to what the radical Muslim fanatical maniacs are doing (and over a comic no less), I don't want to sully this site (yes, this is even beneath our standards) by having you guys talk about it. I'm sick of the whole thing as it is.