Why do people still cling onto faith?

[Vlad]

[Disclaimer: The following is written from an atheistic/non-religious position and should not be viewed as an attack on religion but simply a very open and transparent statement.]


Is it because some people emotionally need it? Tell me those of you who are religious. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE in a concept that is so obviously a total construct of the mind, like 'god' for example? Does he exists in your minds or he a physical being that has the ability to interact with the physical world? I want to know how you think, and why you think that way. I want to know what you think gives you the ability to have 'faith' (a.k.a blind unsubstantiated belief) in something?

This is sort of a relevant issue these days because religion is so widespread and influential at this time. Starting at the societal microscopic level, I am keen to dwelve into the macroscopic phenomenon of religious revival especially in times of strife or war. How does this theistically inclined delusion scale from the individual mind to the masses and beyond? Is it just like any other idea? Like freedom and liberty etc? Do the religious fanatics among us fight and die for a god because it is 'the right thing to do'?

Some of these ponderings are deep but bear with me. I want to have a calm and calculated discussion. I'm not interested in an argument over atheism vs theism. I am interested in learning a bit about how the majority (that would be the religious people) think and believe what they believe for no obvious reasons that I can read in a book or see on the history channel or even look up in an encyclopedia.

To tell you the truth I would love to deconstruct the religious brain and see how it works, piece by piece. How can logic and illogic reside together side by side, and give rise to such seemingly stable individuals? Please, explain your thoughts to me.

[farsimon]

probably the same reason you keep coming back to this forum...

[farsimon]

+1

[MrBored]

How can logic and illogic reside together side by side, and give rise to such seemingly stable individuals?

You could just examine a female brain... But yeah, I think you missunderestimate (hah. see, its funny cause he's religious...) the stupidity of the average human being.

I often forget that religion exists, which has led to some uncomfortable moments amongst religious friends. Religion is silly, no point in really discussing it or even thinking about it.

[tisl]

Oh, why won't people stop discussing this? People need religion because they don't want to face the possibility that they're simply nothing more than evolved apes and still animals, and that there's no greater purpose to life. Now, intelligence would force you to cope with that possibility, but when religion is hammered into you at such an early age and people naturally want to follow what other people do, it's hard to reject it.

Basically, people are weak creatures and they would rather fight and believe for a cause without questioning it instead of facing the fact that there's no real purpose of life other than to reproduce like every other animal. It gives them something to live for.

[san_pali]

Oh, why won't people stop discussing this? People need religion because they don't want to face the possibility that they're simply nothing more than evolved apes and still animals, and that there's no greater purpose to life. Now, intelligence would force you to cope with that possibility, but when religion is hammered into you at such an early age and people naturally want to follow what other people do, it's hard to reject it.

Basically, people are weak creatures and they would rather fight and believe for a cause without questioning it instead of facing the fact that there's no real purpose of life other than to reproduce like every other animal. It gives them something to live for.

*applauds*

i really wanted to add something to this discussion, but, you pretty much nail the topic for me. So, without further ado....
+1

[The Omega]

one could argue that those who wish to believe they evolved from apes are scared that they are not in control of their own lives. that there's a higher power out there that created them.

btw, anyone ever find the irony of a evolutionist/atheist that believes in fate funny? "oh everything happened by chance, but that's how it was suppose to happen!" no lie, i heard this argument once and i couldn't help but laugh. you point out the flaw and it's like asking a religious zealot the burrito question from the simpsons. they just stand their like a deer in the head lights.

[schnitzel_bob]

one could argue that those who wish to believe they evolved from apes are scared that they are not in control of their own lives. that there's a higher power out there that created them.

btw, anyone ever find the irony of a evolutionist/atheist that believes in fate funny? "oh everything happened by chance, but that's how it was suppose to happen!" no lie, i heard this argument once and i couldn't help but laugh. you point out the flaw and it's like asking a religious zealot the burrito question from the simpsons. they just stand their like a deer in the head lights.


WTF are you talking about? If you're saying what I think you're saying, then you don't understand the first thing about either evolution or the mentality of most atheists (and bear in mind that atheists are far from being a homogenous group).

Vlad, as for your question, I think Tisl basically nailed it dead on, but I would add that for a lot of people (not me), faith gives them a way to carry on in tough times. In the words of the Beatles: "When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comforts me..."

[Yian]

Glad to see religion related debates are back. :) If each and every participants can be respectful to each other, these discussions, I believe, could adds depth to the forum.

[RAY16]

Glad to see religion related debates are back. :) If each and every participants can be respectful to each other, these discussions, I believe, could adds depth to the forum.

That's unpossible! Debates on religion always devolve into flame wars. And that's exactly why I avoid them like I avoid having my nuts bitten off by a Bear.

[StormyPeak]

Oh, why won't people stop discussing this? People need religion because they don't want to face the possibility that they're simply nothing more than evolved apes and still animals, and that there's no greater purpose to life. Now, intelligence would force you to cope with that possibility, but when religion is hammered into you at such an early age and people naturally want to follow what other people do, it's hard to reject it.

Basically, people are weak creatures and they would rather fight and believe for a cause without questioning it instead of facing the fact that there's no real purpose of life other than to reproduce like every other animal. It gives them something to live for.

Tisl.... not all religions are focused upon evolution....many pagan cults even embraced the idea that animals and humans were kin in some manner. Saying that people believe just for those reasons, only explains a small part of why Jews, Christians and Muslims all probably do have this as part of the reason they believe....but it doesn't cover why millions upon millions of people believed in something else before the time of the Gods of the Egypt, the Mediteranian peoples, the Jews and later Christians.

I'm an athiest, and I too have asked the same question that Vlad has asked. I just can't understand believing in something that can't be proved. I was raised as a Baptist, but lost most of my faith by the time I was 17 when I discovered science has always answered most questions of life - usually correctly and if not...than willing to correct itself and go on with new revelations. Religion will not do that until utterly forced into doing it...and even then will try to take sound scientific data and twist it into some religious quasi-science...such as they did with all the scientific Evolution discoveries and came up with Creationism.

But, I think that at the heart of all religions...you have hit upon something. Many people feel 'small' in this world...and like the feeling they get in thinking/believing that they have a protector. Whether it's one or many gods...the god(s) always protect the good and punish the bad. I think humans also seek justice in an unjust world...and if they can't get it here...they hope the bad guys will face some kind of punishment in the next life. Then there is of course...afterlife..which most religions seem to have...whether it's heaven, or re-incarnation....people just want more than the lot they got here on earth.

Just my two cents.

Stormy

[iha‏teyou]

I think alot of early religions were a way to keep people spiritually satisfyed, and to keep them following a morally correct lifestyle.

Faith also, can help people less anxious, if they have no faith in humanity or earth.

And as Stormy said, fear of death.. People want to know they'll live forever, since they can't fathom death. Personally, my opinion is if you die and that's it, you're not gunna be there to care about it.

Another thing, I guess you could consider me an athiest. But I HATE when athiests can't accept the fact that people like to have religious faith. Like those people that go burn down churches because they dont believe in God.

For example, modern christianity has been stereotyped quite a bit, and people follow that stereotype. Like "if you do drugs you're evil". It doesn't say that in the bible. Thats what makes me mad. Infact it's considered idolitary which is a sin in the Bible.

[SuperDavidGT]

I'm getting so sick of evos vs creationists.

I don't honestly care, if people are stupid enough to believe that everything discovery channel tells them is lies, that there are only a few 1000 cells in our body, that they would rather their children died than lose their faith, then that's there problem.

But riddle me this, creatonists - if the human body is so perfect, then why do so many people have naturally occuring back problems?

Because it's not perfect. A second year engineering student with a biology background could build a better organised and more efficient meatsack.

[iha‏teyou]

Hah, when I said I respect peoples religions, I wasn't thinking about those crazy creationists. The story about God creating the universe like the bible says is just a metaphor for some weird thing.. or they just assumed this, idk..

[farsimon]

I'm getting so sick of evos vs creationists.

I don't honestly care, if people are stupid enough to believe that everything discovery channel tells them is lies, that there are only a few 1000 cells in our body, that they would rather their children died than lose their faith, then that's there problem.

But riddle me this, creatonists - if the human body is so perfect, then why do so many people have naturally occuring back problems?

Because it's not perfect. A second year engineering student with a biology background could build a better organised and more efficient meatsack.
back problems?

because they're fat...

[Digital Limit]

'I have found God."

People tell me this. I don't get it.

[unskinnybob]

As silly as people with faith in some manner of God may seem to some, non-believers seem equally silly to believers. To say that there is no God is to believe that human kind knows and can explain all. One can neither proove nor dissprove the existance of God by scientific fact. So - saying anyone is wrong is kind of ignorant.

Forcing ones beliefs however pisses me off.

[Vlad]

Well I just spent 1 hour writing a damn essay literally and the forums crapped out on me presumably for some pitiful update like that pathetic multi-quote icon that just appeared and subsequently I am really...really...REALLY pissed.

Oh well...:(

As for what you're saying skinnybob, it is true that we can't pretend to KNOW that there is no god for certain, but don't you see, the whole issue falls in the same league as pretending to KNOW that there is no Rudolf or Superman, I mean, one has never seen one or the other in real life, so how can one say they don't exist, somewhere in this vast universe of ours?

It is can be said that god is a creation of humanity, like the billion other ideas we have come up with to help make our lives a little easier, surely there was no god before planet earth and mankind? What purpose could he have served, if we are the centre of the universe?
The probable truth is, we aren't, and there is no god. I'm sure if the dinosaurs developed speech and a larger brain they would have come up with their own god(s).

Truly this is almost a non-issue, the only thing that makes it an issue worthy of discussion is the fact that so many people subscribe to this stuff. I want to know why.

So - saying anyone is wrong is kind of ignorant.

Not quite. I agree it is somewhat premature perhaps and maybe a teeny weeny bit ignorant, but those that seek to disprove the existence of god at least have some real world evidence to work with. Those who seek to prove he does indeed exist have absolutely nothing BUT ignorance of the physical evidence at hand.

The most convenient thing for them to say is 'how can you diprove something that has never been proven to exist'? That is a very poor defense I believe. Because that's essentially what they are saying when they say "you can't prove it one way or another, so why bother, just accept it. Thats essentially the epitome of the argument on the theological side of the fence. That is their ultimate weapon, and it is a very poor weapon.


Forcing ones beliefs however pisses me off.

Ultimately that one statement sums up nicely the theme of my next statement.

We are all unique individuals, and if not entirely free in the outside world, we should all at least have some freedom in the inner world. We should have the right to believe whatever we want, inwardly, and not force our believes onto others just because we think they are the 'right' beliefs.

Sadly religion is largely a mass construct. It relies on numbers and spreading the word to even exist. Thus it does exactly what me and unskinnybob here don't want it to do. It tries to 'force' it's values and rules onto others, and that pisses me and unskinnybob off!

[unskinnybob]

Saying that Dinosaurs were possibly capable of developing speech implies that you subscribe to Darwin's theory of evolution? The history of planet earth points more towards the evolution of man being a farce than it being true. Evolution doesn't work for me. Except with whales. They'd probably have evolved by now if we'd stop pushing them back in the water.

[Digital Limit]

As silly as people with faith in some manner of God may seem to some, non-believers seem equally silly to believers. To say that there is no God is to believe that human kind knows and can explain all. One can neither proove nor dissprove the existance of God by scientific fact. So - saying anyone is wrong is kind of ignorant.

Forcing ones beliefs however pisses me off.

But I'm not saying that there is no God.

I'm saying it's stupid to spend so much time and effort in what is most likely a pointless charade.

People fight wars over fairy tales, and that's why atheists aren't the silly ones.

[Vlad]

Saying that Dinosaurs were possibly capable of developing speech implies that you subscribe to Darwin's theory of evolution? The history of planet earth points more towards the evolution of man being a farce than it being true. Evolution doesn't work for me. Except with whales. They'd probably have evolved by now if we'd stop pushing them back in the water.

I don't understand. Whales? Evolved to what? Are you saying that evolution is a ladder of hierarchy dependent on species intelligence as opposed to time?

Evolution, in the species-centric context, if thought of as some sort of game for supremacy is solely measured by species 'duration' and length of survival in the resulting habitat.
The human species is a continuation of simpler creatures that found it hard to continue the way they were earlier and subsequently evolved binocular vision for better sight and a larger brain for a larger chance of survival. This was of course achieved through the finer nuances that make up the biological evolutionary process, I'm sure you're familiar with some of these mechanisms, random mutation, species differentiation etc.

But with all these fancy new adaptations, are we humans going to survive for more than a few million years?
Will this species survive and continue to evolve, or will it end in a failed line? Will our evolutionary tree simply come to an abrupt end?
Another devastating mass extinction perhaps, brought about by an intra-planetary cataclysm (comet, asteroid etc) or something man-made, like a nasty biological weapon, or a new energy weapon (antimatter bomb etc)?

What I'm saying is until we outlive the duration of the dinosaur evolutionary branch, which lasted for well over 100 million years in it's purer form, we are not yet the most successful animals that have existed on this planet.
The thousands of beetle species prevalent in every nook and cranny of the biosphere are certainly more numerous and contribute more to earth biomass than all 6.5 billion humans put together, or take the ants for example, they contribute the largest percentage of living planetary biomass besides plants. They outnumber and outweigh everything resembling an animal(but not plants) many times over.

The most successful species on the planet are often the more simple and more efficient. Various bacteria have been around for longer than anything else. They are so successful in fact, that they need not undergo species differentiation through selective environmental mutation channelling and subsequent evolutionary tree expansion, because it is not necessary for their survival. And that's what it's all about. Survival. Replication, reprodution.
It is no accident that Bacteria are so successfull. The asexual method of reprodution may have it's downsides, but being simpler, faster and less demanding on resources at hand, it is still the more successful of the two methods for reproduction (the other being of the sexual mechanism).

It does not matter that we can build rockets to other worlds and replicate the processes of our nearest star, the sun for short periods of time in artificial reactors (tokamaks etc).
If we are to outlive the cockroaches or the ants we must reavaluate our standing in the world, let alone the universe, we must understand how we came to be and where we are headed. Evolutionary theory plays into all of this, and it does it well.

Speaking of survival, more people have been killed by bacteria and viruses (although viruses and their equivalents-prions etc are yet to be defined as 'living') in this century than in all the wars since 1914. The small pox virus killed 100 million people this century alone. Think about it. A small piece of RNA/DNA material coupled with a few extra ingredients is a more efficient killer than our finest extermination camps. It is something to consider for all those who thing humans are the masters of biological disposal/destruction.

In the end evolution is more than just a theory if you have studied it in detail. It is almost a law in fact. It is still called a theory because we have so much more to learn about the branching fields of knowledge that stem from evolutionary theory, thus it can't be a law like Fermi's law or the law of thermodynamics, yet.
But time can make some significant amends, if we let it.
The most important thing in this regard then is not to fear or hinder the possibilities of this line of thought. (Wether it be right or inconceivably erronous). It has brought nothing but good (in the fields of medicine and understand of the body's developmental processes through gene research). Let us embrace it and see where it can lead us.
Religion in this respect(that of explaining the origin of species and applying that new-found knowledge into practical tasks such as boosting our power to heal the sick ) has been leading us around in circles for far too long, unlike Darwin who opened the door and gave us another, much more fruitful path to follow.

[farsimon]

you know no one is going to read all that, don't you?

[Vlad]

you know no one is going to read all that, don't you?

It is not entirely relevant that any of you read it now. I'm not really looking for or even expecting a coherent reply, however, it is always good to put one's words on paper (or in this case an electronic storage format on some obscure internet server somewhere).
Let's just say that it will do no harm to anyone, and leave it at that.

[unskinnybob]

What it comes down to Vlad, is that you choose to believe in evolution - despite there being no proof that man evolved from ape. Oversimplifying: I prefer to believe that humankind was created by God, rather than believing my ancestors were monkeys.

The part about whales was a joke.

[SuperDavidGT]

back problems?

because they're fat...

Obesity is proof of imperfection. So are mongoloids. You know, like Vlad.



I think what a lot of people don't realise is that there is room for people to believe in both God and science, so long as you don't take the bible literally. That's why I stopped being a hardcore atheist and just listed myself as agnostic - there's no proof the answer is yes, but there's no proof the answer is no.

[StormyPeak]

I think what a lot of people don't realise is that there is room for people to believe in both God and science, so long as you don't take the bible literally. That's why I stopped being a hardcore atheist and just listed myself as agnostic - there's no proof the answer is yes, but there's no proof the answer is no.

A lot of scientist admit to believing in God and say they just use science to 'explain' the world He created...and these are scientist who are not out to prove the Creationism crap.

Me, I just Cannot look at photos that Hubble took...of all those galaxies, star nurseries, places that would take 100,000+ light years to get to - and then believe there was a "God" who created all of it.

I Can say I Don't know how it all came about. I Won't make up a fairy tale either about how it did and believe in it with all my heart and soul (if souls do indeed exist;) )

To me, in the most jaded outlook of religion....it's a political controling agent of masses....a few on top of the church/belief chain living fat and in control of the minds of those who fell for the religion's doctrines. Then of course are the fanatics that religion produces those who would use force to bring their religion to others.

At best, it does help many individuals get through life with more peace of mind and most church goers are good people who are willing to jump in and help other people out in times of hardship.

Stormy

[Vlad]

What it comes down to Vlad, is that you choose to believe in evolution - despite there being no proof that man evolved from ape. Oversimplifying: I prefer to believe that humankind was created by God, rather than believing my ancestors were monkeys.

The part about whales was a joke.

Man never did evolve from 'apes'. Monkeys and man evolved from a common ancestor, as for apes, we (homo sapiens) are now classified as being part of the ape familly. The 98.5% DNA sequence similarity with Chimpanzees for example is not coincidental.
When was the last time you picked up a good encyclopedia backed up by a good amount of experimental evidence?

There is overwhelming 'proof' that man and other apes evolved from a common ancestor. You just choose not to see it. I believe what I see, hear, taste, touch, smell etc, and only after I have tested it and double-checked that what I'm seeing is what I really am seeing, not what I want to believe, or what gives me comfort, but what is actually solidly backed up by that little thing called the scientific method.

[Vlad]

I think what a lot of people don't realise is that there is room for people to believe in both God and science, so long as you don't take the bible literally. That's why I stopped being a hardcore atheist and just listed myself as agnostic - there's no proof the answer is yes, but there's no proof the answer is no.

Of course there is room for people to think this and do that. But the problem is, organized religion is not something you can merely believe and think and ponder. It must be practiced, otherwise it turns into a mere idea without foundations and dies. In this way it is an extension of the mind, a tool, yet a tool without purpose when it comes to the most physical of questions, like explaining the origins of this or that for example.
Science is something that also must be practiced to be of use, just another tool, yet one with much greater purpose because it actually does a fine job in explaining many of these things quite adequately.
Then the two inevitably collide in various fields. Creationism vs Evolution is one glaring example.

[MrBored]

Saying that Dinosaurs were possibly capable of developing speech implies that you subscribe to Darwin's theory of evolution? The history of planet earth points more towards the evolution of man being a farce than it being true. Evolution doesn't work for me. Except with whales. They'd probably have evolved by now if we'd stop pushing them back in the water.

Whales evolved from a dog like creature, I saw it on National Geographic :P If you take a dog and cut off its legs, then watch it try run, it will look exactly like a whale swimming (except smaller, and it will be damn amusing).

More seriously... If you learnt more about DNA then you'd see how plausible evolution is. A discovery was made recently (about the mid 90's) that revolutionized our understanding of how DNA works to create life and how all animals share the exact same building blocks, they're just arranged differently. They took the eye building block out from a mouse and placed it in a fly. The gene activated during development and the fly grew perfect compound eyes. The exact same eye gene, except it was arranged differently than in the mouse. Just goes to show that a simple change can result in a completely different creature.

There is also a stress hormone (physical stress) which can directly modify DNA IIRC. As we get more advanced we'll figure out the missing gaps in the theory. Science always gets round to solving all of our problems.

I've heard that the Pope in the 1800's (maybe earlier, can't recall), claimed that anyone that believes in a vacuum is a heretic. He stated that because inside a vacuum there is nothing, then god cannot reside there. God has to be everywhere, so that cannot be possible. Every century the religion argument gets weaker and science prevails. The very fact that there is more than one religion and no religion is very old (all been heavily modified over the years) is proof enough that it is a human construct.

[farsimon]

evolution explains how things really happen.
creationists fill in the gap how things got so complex so quickly.
religion fills in the gaps that science hasn't uncovered/explained.

Any questions?

[Yian]

Yes, one question: how does everything get started in the first place, and why? Evolution certainly doesn't explain that.

[unskinnybob]

Good point Yian.

I'm not arguing that evolution of species is not real - but I don't agree that mankind themselves evolved from anything. Regardless of genetic similarities. Until someone uncovers the missing link, I'm sticking to my guns.

Oh, and Stormy - we get it. You don't believe in anything. So save us the story of your life. The universe couldn't possibly have been created by an all-powerful-being. Must have been a big explosion.

[farsimon]

Yes, one question: how does everything get started in the first place, and why? Evolution certainly doesn't explain that.
neither does religion.

In fact, religion doesn't really explain anything at all...

[unskinnybob]

Genesis ring a bell?

[farsimon]

ahem... who made god?

[unskinnybob]

Ahem... all-powerful... always existed...

[MrBored]

Ahem... all-powerful... always existed...

Ahem... why can't the same hold true for matter?

[unskinnybob]

Suppose it can. But everything seems to have a reasonable date of origin - isn't that why so many subscribed to the big bang theory as scientific reasoning behind the start of the universe?

[MrBored]

Suppose it can. But everything seems to have a reasonable date of origin - isn't that why so many subscribed to the big bang theory as scientific reasoning behind the start of the universe?

The big bang isn't necessarily the start of all matter, it could just be the start of this universe. The universe could have collapsed on its self before the big bang, and this could have happened over and over again. There are many theories.

Anyway, fuck you. You ruined the Ahem rythm we had going :(

[SuperDavidGT]

Evolution and the systems of selection are solid, it fills in all the gaps, nice and easily. I'm doing it this semester and it answers all the questions.

It seems to me that people who are solid in their faith have trouble comprehending infinity. Exhibit a: creatonists insist the world is 6,000 years old, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary. They can't seem to wrap their head around the idea that the world - and life - has existed for billions of years, and will continue to do so long after they die.

Billions of years is more than enough for evolution to occur. You have molecules in the water that start bonding together, and after a few million years they begin to develop an organic state of being, and become single celled organisms. Then those organisms start to develop DNA and diversify, and some even touch each other and accidentally swap DNA. Water levels drop, some cells are high in compounds like starch and glucose and become stuck, developing into plants. Others become shit like bacteria and plankton. Fast forward a billion years and these single cells have become double-celled, multi-celled, and are now tadpole-like creatures and minnows. They've developed simple circulatory systems, and have managed to organise and arrange a group of photosensitive cells into what will soon become eyes.

Jump another couple billion years, and you have the basic dinosaurs. As creatures become more complex evolution starts to work faster. 300 million years later, velociraptors have reached a state of near-sentient awareness. If it weren't for that thing that wiped dinosaurs out, they would probably have evolved into the dominant species with cars and brick housing.

But they didn't. 65 million years after they all died, the rodents and birds that survived the nuclear winter have turned the world into the freakshow it is today, and this happened so quickly because mammals root like nobodies business and the generation gaps are far smaller than those of the equivalent sized reptiles from the dinosaur period (theoretically).

As for the missing links: Transitionary species are rare and don't last long, so the chances of preservation are low. But have been some; the only reason people say "they aren't monkey like" is because hair doesn't fossilise well. If it did, we'd be finding some extremely hairy corpses in the south american/asian mountain ranges.

Two good examples of evolutionary transition - the dinosaur that had wings, chimpanzees vs bonobos, and most importantly, the different stages of foetal development - we literally relive all our evolutionary past in a crash course of 9 months as we go from egg to infant. Google them.



Where does God fit into all this? Well, I say he doesn't, but someone who does can easily point out that every step of evolution was part of God's will - that every natural disaster, every population wiped out, every genetic mutation selected to be spread en masse for whatever purpose was all because of His choosing. You could even say that he created the first single-celled organisms if you really wanted.

Genisis is a nice story and all, but there is no way on earth it can be true.

[farsimon]

I think the concept of a god/creator should be expanded to more than just a being that represents a human being with human consciousness etc. My view of a god/creator tends much more towards a driving force that drives the continuation of life and the protection of it to survive and maximize survival of the species.

[SuperDavidGT]

When you say driving force, you mean something that doesn't have an embodiment or manifestation? Sounds like fate.

Fate and karma are the only spiritual things I believe in, and even then I still feel there's a scientific explanation for fate.

But if there was a God, or some kind of higher power, I think he'd be more like a benevolent teacher and guide, letting us do things and figure shit out for ourselves rather than the vengeful and childish kid-with-an-ant-farm the bible makes him out to be.

[farsimon]

When you say driving force, you mean something that doesn't have an embodiment or manifestation? Sounds like fate.

Fate and karma are the only spiritual things I believe in, and even then I still feel there's a scientific explanation for fate.

But if there was a God, or some kind of higher power, I think he'd be more like a benevolent teacher and guide, letting us do things and figure shit out for ourselves rather than the vengeful and childish kid-with-an-ant-farm the bible makes him out to be.
no I mean more.... like gaia in the final fantasy movie - for lack of a better explanation.

It IS life and not some "deity" controlling life. As for fate and carma - I believe that you create your own fate/luck/whatever and these should be written off as coincidence.

The bible description of god is exactly like the kings of old. He's too human.

[No Soul]

Not fully valid with the topic but does contain ideals of religion.

Iran and August 22nd (http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/11/video-robert-spencer-on-irans-plans-for-august-22nd/)

[Vlad]

Going back to the origins of the universe debate (however brief that was), starting with the big bang, there need not have been anything before, because time itself, a proven factor of 4 dimensional space-time was in fact conceived in those moment, thus it does not make sense to ask what came 'before'. There was no before as there was no time.

For example, what is north of the north pole? Nothing.

[unskinnybob]

South is just North of the north pole.

[schnitzel_bob]

Okay, we've covered evolution pretty well.

As for the origin of the universe, I accept as a general concept the Big Bang (or the Horrendous Space Kablooie for any Calvin and Hobbes fans out there. No one?), but I understand that it ain't exactly a rock solid piece of science.

However
Using the Bible as a source for anything is ridiculous. Even if you ignore the many inconsistencies in the bible, even if you ignore the fantastic elements of it, you have to look at the bible as a historical text that was subjected to far more issues than many other historical texts of doubtful authenticity. For example:
-The bible has been translated a number of times, and as anyone who writes in more than one language knows, things get lost in translation.
-The bible was under the control of the Roman clergy for 1000 years, and they suppressed and edited as they saw fit (Dead sea scrolls, anyone?)
-Many elements of the bible can be traced back to pre-christian civilisations (myth of virgin and child, divine trinity, etc).

Amen.

[adi]

Your argument comes from a very general prespective, I somewhat understand what you are trying to say.
Actually, even atheists believe in The Almighty, in some form or another, everyone does, that's the beauty of it, perception, call it what you like. Here's how i see it. According to the law of conservation of mass, matter cannot be created or destroyed, it simply changes forms, this form is present throughout the universe in the guise of Kinetic Energy. You will agree with me this far won't you? People see this energy as the Alimghty Omnipotent Entity which you can say decides what form what matter takes now.
Actually these days scientists are hard at work trying to come up with a quantum computer (long story short, mucho small, mondo powerful) and in bringing it about, maths will have to go out the window, the basis of atheism, that 1+1=2 and that is the only way to get 2 (through addition anyway) and that everything has only human input and similar output, but that would shake many beliefs to their very foundation since calculation will turn from yes/no to yes/no/maybe/i don't know (can you repeat the question...you're not the boss of me now.....etc.etc.).
My point of view is, if clinging onto their faith gives someone strength to live through the abuse/misery/agony/test that is life, then I don't think one post on a forum will do anything to shake that strength.

[iha‏teyou]

Adi, no. Athiests don't believe in a 'higher form' or whatever, that's Agnostic you're thinking of. Agnostic's believe theres a god of some type, but they don't try to decipher who and what God is. They don't really follow any specific rules regarding religion either, other than possibly abiding by common morals.

Although you hear about some Athiests that assault churches and react violently to religion, alot of Athiests tolerate other peoples religions.

If you don't want people to persuade you, then good. But don't expect other people to listen to you either. I can't say I really believe in God sadly, but I don't think thats the only possibility. I'm not sure if there is or is not a God, but the 'cold' realism of science and the universe leads me to believe otherwise..

[SuperDavidGT]

I thought agnostics just sat on the fence.

"Hey, I never said you didn't exist... come on, just let me in!"