Intelligent Debate in regards to MMO

[gamp_alcom]

Okay, in my other post obviously there are some opinions held in regards to MMO so here is a thread hoping for at least a semi-intelligent replies out of it :P.

ONE RULE though: only 4 (just to not let it get out of hand), for every argument (meaning Pro, Con, & Counter argument)

Obviously I can start out with the pros

1) MMO gives you a vast world and can let you interact with literally hundreds and thousands of players online all at the same time
2) Can give you countless of hours of gameplay and fun
3) lets you immerse yourself with the world
4) Make friends and play with your friends 24/7


Cons
1) damn Gankers, wankers, newbs, plats, farmers, grifers, and all sorts of terms you will expect to find in MMO
2) 15USD a month?
3) Makes you a hermit to the outside world
4) waste hours bashing the same monster over and over just to ding

Counter argument
1) You expect that in every MMO, and even when playing just LAN in free RTS gameplay (such as Warcraft 3 or counter strike)
2) If you look at it in the big picture, 15 USDper month would actually give you 50 cents per day of game play. Just spending 5 hours a week playing would make it worthwhile. AND its cheaper than going out to the movies.
3) Thats your choice
4) There are always quest and explore the world and lore for you to level up

feel free to add your own thoughts and opinions:confused:

[Digital Limit]

MMOs suck. GG

[tisl]

I don't want to stick to the format of points, but I will intelligently debate.

MMOs have extremely shallow gameplay. The clearest example I can provide would be WoW where the same formula is followed throughout the entire game. You enter an area and you fill your quest book, and I'd say there are only about five different types of quests possible, and that's being generous. You do that for a month, then you reach level 60. When you reach level 60 you spend your time pointlessly collecting epics so you can compete in PvP and raise your score. It's not like PvP is that great either, you have to fucking WAIT IN LINE to actually play. The excuse that "I do all this just so I can PvP" is quite stupid as well. There are limits to what you have to go through to get to the "meat" of the game, and it's frequently pushed in those stupid Japanese RPGs, but MMOs completely ignore the limit and people don't put up with that because the "meat" is so great. They put up with it because the ego satisfaction is what keeps them going. Knowing that if they put in one more week, their dicks will become that much bigger. People wouldn't tolerate the hours MMOs force you to put in if the players were replaced by AI and it turned into a singleplayer game.

MMOs aren't games. They're interactive chatrooms with little minigames to waste your time in. They're a place where you can satisfy your pathetic need to feel superior by collecting gear that's ridiculously hard to obtain.

The "fun" that you give in your pros isn't really from a gameplay point of view. When I play games, I expect fun from the gameplay, not from interacting with humans. The fact that in point number four you complained about the repetitive nature of MMO gameplay reinforces what I'm saying.

[tisl]

Oh, and don't freak out from the hostile nature of the tone I used above. It doesn't mean I want to tear out your intestines and feed them to my slave.

[unskinnybob]

Fuck you and fuck your fucking debate sir. I say: "Go fuck yourself". Whose the bitch in your sig? She gave me VD.

[tisl]

Actiontrip needs all the discussion it can get. Don't scare this young man off. Be insulting like DL is insulting.

[Digital Pimp]

Coming from a WoW veteran of 2 years now I can agree with almost every point in both your Pros and Cons.

If your a person, like me, who enjoys the Lore of the Warcraft universe than WoW is fantastic in that not only does it feel like your part of a bigger universe but you see the story expanding. Of course its not every day and consistently changing but when you do get to new stuff that relatesto another story from say Warcraft 2 its very fun and puts a smile on your face.

I've taken a various extended breaks from WoW ranging anywhere from 1 to 3 months and I always come back and enjoy the game when I play again.

I was recently accepted into the closed beta for the Burning Crusade and the content Blizzard has put into Outland is fantastic and a real refresher for the game when I was really debating on not renewing my account next February when it goes out.

MMOS are a tricky beast when it comes to tuning gameplay it is consistently changing due to new levels, worlds, items,and player feedback. Its been 2 year and Blizzard is still adjusting classes due to all these factors. Also Blizzard has had to meet both the demand of the casual and harcore MMO player, 2 that have risen out ofthe 7.5 Million player base. This is really where The Burning Crusade shines. It gives much needed boost to the casual players by giving basic green gear from quests that match Tier 1 Epic gear. Money is also easily gainable in the expansion in the week I've played I've made around 300 gold and this is about 2 to 4 hours of playing a day.

That's my arguement. I can see why people hate MMOs, I've been there. Then I can also see why people just love em.

[Digital Limit]

Actiontrip needs all the discussion it can get. Don't scare this young man off. Be insulting like DL is insulting.

I didn't insult anyone. MMOs do suck.

It's an airtight argument.

[Lehesu]

I kinda like Guild Wars. And it avoids the 15 quid a month game.

[Dolfin]

Guild wars was a quality MMO, no subscription.

It was the first game that brought me to things like Ts/Vent, and i realised how fun online gaming really is with random people. I ended up making some friends irl from playing games which i thought was really sad.. And i still think it is, but i can't regret it as i have alot of laughs with these people.

The only other MMO i've played is runescape.. I started this with some irl friends and enjoy the PvP aspect of it, but i do realise its a shit game which every gaming forum hates.

I've quit runescape and guildwars, and now im moving onto NWN2, im not quite sure if this is classified as an MMO though.

[RADiator]

Those few months of WoW where the best as well as the worst of my gaming history.
When you aren’t the single beacon of life that defines the world around you but when you are defined by the world vast and animate. Indeed big enough to loose yourself in that is when it all comes together. And formalities bleed to the background and matter no longer.

[Hitman]

Intelligent YAY! Marshmellows YAY! Me hungry, intelligent me.

[gamp_alcom]

Its all good in debate so rants will obviously be here /points to DL and Bob

First to Dolfin,
Why do you say Guildwars aint quality MMO anymore? I hear that people who play it are having fun and the best of all its free!! Being free has Guildwars service declined? And Good luck to NwN2, I hear a beast computer is needed for that in terms of graphics

TISL
I kinda agree you have formed a stereotype for players who play MMO which can be basically being gamers that are either assholes or people having inferior egos thats whythey play to make them feel obviously surperior. I must agree I have met people like that and they are called either Noobs, whiner crybabies or fukcin Assholes in the game. The insane hardcore players may also be lumped there depending on the person.

Some people are too extreme thinking this aint a game but something Real and that is dangerous to the point of addiction.

BUT I have also met people who are really really nice people who just play to have fun in the game. Who like social interactions. I have met people and made friends with them. They are mostly casual players who dont have time to spend playing MMO because they have kids, wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, and friends. Its great to group up with them simply because they are great people to hang around in and give you help if you are having problem. Just being with these people is great and like you said a chatroom and at the same time its a game.

Speaking of gameplay, there are so many times that in the game there is suspense in traveling to new places and areas to explore. It never fails to amaze me when I go to a new place (thats what expansions are for) and a group in tow. The excitement of killing a boss for the first time is exciting when the battle vs the boss and the group is pretty even. So many times I have won barely with just 1 hp left with the group companions lying dead on the ground but we were able to kill the boss, or the times we had to run away because of the train. Even peoples reactions to certain things are good fun. It is all uncertainty as well because just traveling brings dangers that keep you alert all day.

Of course all that ends when you reach the epic levels and resort to grinding and raiding. But I believe the first half of the levels when you group with people are the best what MMO can offer.

To Pimp:
What will burning crusade offer besides new levels? All i hear is that Blizzard to change nothing much except new same quest. At least Eq2 had the flavour to add a whole new city in the latest expansion and add new progressions such as diety calling and such.

:rolleyes:

[Digital Limit]

I kinda like Guild Wars. And it avoids the 15 quid a month game.

Yeah, I played the crap out of that game. I actually might like to go back...

I miss my necromancer.

[SuperDavidGT]

MMO character designs, on the whole, either look seriously gay or seriously emo.

I'm pointing mostly at Guild Wars.


Other than those GW trial weekends, I've never played an MMO. Though I do know a couple of guys who would disembody their brains and directly attach WoW to their consciousness if they could.

[gamp_alcom]

MMO character designs, on the whole, either look seriously gay or seriously emo.

I'm pointing mostly at Guild Wars.


Other than those GW trial weekends, I've never played an MMO. Though I do know a couple of guys who would disembody their brains and directly attach WoW to their consciousness if they could.

There are some people as well who go bananas with the wierdest things. Just look at Ripleys. These people are only the minority. But usually the people you meet who are hardcore will just wear themselves out. Ive had 2 friends like that as wel but I let them be, and eventually they got over the addiction of WoW.

[fatBastard();]

There is actually quite a few aspects one needs to consider when talking about MMO's.

1) Basic character traits
The two most basic character traits are the "Expert" trait and the "Jack of all Trades" trait.

The expert picks an area of interest and then proceeds to put all of his eggs into that basket. The deeper into the subject he goes the more satisfaction he gets from it. The upside is that with enough time (and of course talent) you can become a local/national/international authority on the matter and, depending the subject of your focus, it could lead to attractive job offers or even fame. The downside is that it is very easy to get "tunnel vision" in the sense that all your focus is based on one or at best a few key area(s) so you might be able to do open brain surgery and yet be unable to do anything for the guy with the broken finger. Another downside is if your area of expertise becomes outdated/obsolete you could be indispensable one day and useless the next.

The Jack of all Trades goes for width instead of depth. He knows of bit (or quite a bit) about many different areas. Where an expert goes straight with a single-minded determination, a Jack of all trades likes to zig zag and the variation that brings. Don't get me wrong: Being a Jack of all Trades is not comparative to having a short attention span. It is about enjoying the act of learning new things. The upside to this is a tendency to be a lot more flexible than an expert and due to his very nature he has become quite adept at quickly learning new areas/techniques/technologies. Jack of all trades can be great at finding and locating problems in complex situations because he can draw upon knowledge from many different areas, but once the problem has been located he often needs to call on the expert to actually fix it. Another downside to being a Jack of all trades is that if you get "stuck" doing a specific task at work it can quite easy become frustrating due to the lack of variation.

This is of course a very simplified explanation of these two archtypes but I hope my point will become clear shortly.

2) Social preference:
Again we can boil it down to two basic views on the whole "multi human interaction" thingamajib.

On one hand you have the guy who likes it: Sure, there are a few rotten apples here and there but all the great experiences you get by interacting with other players far outweigh everything else. From the rush you get when the teamplay is finally working to the friendships/interactions you can get online with your guildmates is what makes the game(s) fun to play.

On the other hand you the guy who doesn't like it: Sure, there are some fun moments to be had when you, once in a blue moon, stumble across a moron free server but most often it is the human factor that is the biggest problem. All the team killers, spawn campers, exploiters, spammers and whiners can individually ruin a match but even without them it can be an exercise in frustration to observe a whole team consisting of nothing but egocentric point whores with no understanding of the word "teamplay".

In short one might say that the former group of people thinks that the unpredictable human nature is what makes games fun because no two sessions are ever the same whereas the second group thinks that the egocentric human nature, while in theory chaotic, makes it pretty predictable that he will always try to blind side you which will quickly make it more frustrating/boring than fun.

3) Why do you play games?:
What is it about a game that make you spend time on it? Is it a specific genre that appeals to you (RTS, RPG, FPS, etc)? Or is it the eye candy? (judging by many of the comments on the main site one might think that many people are more focused on how a game looks than what kind of a game it is). Perhaps it is the story? Unlockables? Achievements? Replayability? Lenght of the game? Interaction? (human or NPCs) ...

If we zoom out a bit one might ask: Is it the EXPERIENCE of playing the game or the gameplay MECHANICS that appeals to you the most? I mean once you've seen "The Sixth Sense" you can hardly watch it again in the same way you did the first time. And one round of Counter Strike is narratively the exact same as any other round.

Very few people exclusively like one type or the other but most have a preference for either one.

Conclusion:
There are many other aspects to consider for a thorough analysis of the MMO phenomena but the 3 major aspects, in my opinion, are the ones I have described above.

In order to fully enjoy an MMO you have to have the mindset of the "expert" in order to want to play the same game day after day, week after week and month after month (the dedication required is not unlike an athlete in training). You also have to enjoy human interaction because the very nature of an MMO is about groupings/factions/guilds and try as you might, you can't get around this. And finally you need to take more pleasure from the gameplay mechanics than the experience of playing because you're going to be doing most of the things in the game over and over again.

Me, I'm a Jack of all trades. I hate the human factor in just about every multiplayer game and I play games for the experience they provide. Needless to say that MMOs to me is utterly alien. Basically every aspect of the genre goes against my nature. I'm pretty sure that should I buy an MMO, I would not likely need to extend my account longer than the month that is included in the package because by that time I would have been able to see what the game has to offer and I would most likely be fed up with the other players by then anyway.

To me, the whole "Achievements/unlockables" trend is pure evil. I don't mind natural replayability (playing a game like Diablo2 with a Necromancer is a totally different experience than playing it with a Barbarian), but when you make it an integral part of the gameplay I step aside. I can easily imagine how annoyed I would be with the following example:

"What do you mean you need 10 pelts of whatshisname? I just brought you 50 of those. In fact I was standing in line with 10 other people and we all off loaded one stack of pelts after the other. You got your pelts already. Move on buddy."

As I said before: Being a Jack of all Trades is not equivalent with having a short atttention span. I LOVE long games. I spent more than 300 hours on Oblivion and I have spend at least 150 hours on NWN2 by now. However, the moment a task turns into a "grind" is the moment I lose interest in the game and as I understand it, "Grinding" is a very central part of the MMO gameplay/progression. The reason I was able to play Oblivion for so long was because it was packed with quests that - while basically was made up of the same fundamental parts - still managed to "feel" like different quests. In MMOs they don't even bother trying to hide that you're basically doing the same thing over an over again. You actually ARE doing the same thing again and again and that is another point where the "experience" of the game breaks for me.

I know a few people that are hooked on WoW or other MMOs and seeing how Action Trip has more a less turned into a WoW fansite I have gained more tolerance and understanding of the MMO world but I can safely say that it will NEVER be a genre for me.