thoughts on life, religion, etc.

[schnitzel_bob]

Hmmmmm...

[cocklove4headcheese]

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

1) I believe that there is one God
2) I believe in heaven and hell

Ok, I'll keep it short this time. I'm curious about a few things:

1. How did you come to the conclusion that there is 1 God ?

2. Heaven and Hell are always made to sound like utopias and we know for a fact that utopias don't work. So I'd like to hear your version before passing judgment.
What would you say Heaven and Hell's purpose is and how would you describe them ? To be more precise, I'd like to know how and in what shape or form does one get there and how do these places actually work ? I mean how are they "built" in comparison to a place on Earth ?

I think these are questions that should be answered by anyone who says these places really exist.

[The Heart Of Darkness]

I came to the conclusion that there is a god at all simply because some things in life are just too beautiful to be created by a cosmic accident. Its like looking at a painting that you know must have an artist. And why is there only one Earth? If it was created by a simple cosmic accident, with nothing having any hand in its creation, why doesn't the cosmic accident repeat itself with the billions and billions of stars in our universe?

Now I believe there is only 1 god because if there were more than one I think we'd notice some kind of struggle/conflict between gods (think greek mythology). And according to my beliefs; God made man the only creature held accountable for his actions simply to prove a point to Satan who defied him. So imagine if every couple of days some god defied another. We'd definitely see some weird stuff on this planet.

Now about Heaven & Hell, I believe in Heaven and Hell simply because I believe in what I previously stated. God created man, satan defied god in saying he'd make men deny god. So when someone denies the existence of God, its like offending the highest power and making satan win over god. And I think that clearly explains why God created Hell, a place where people who failed him can be punished, which makes perfect sense to me; if I were to walk up to DaVinci and tell him I'm gonna attribute his art to someone else and in time the Mona Lisa is attributed to David Blaine, wouldn't that make DaVinci mad. Besides, in the case of God, God is helping man.

And also how do you explain tens of people popping up throughout history with the exact same message: worship God ? If I'm willing to believe such a person then he'd have probably been better off claiming he's a god rather than just a prophet.

[MrBored]

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

This thread is not about being good, its about the fact that un om bun bashed muslims and we're having this discussion because I'm trying to prove to un om bun that you can't classify people according to their religion.

You can't classify the individual, but you sure can generalize and you generally will be correct.

[MrBored]

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

I came to the conclusion that there is a god at all simply because some things in life are just too beautiful to be created by a cosmic accident. Its like looking at a painting that you know must have an artist. And why is there only one Earth? If it was created by a simple cosmic accident, with nothing having any hand in its creation, why doesn't the cosmic accident repeat itself with the billions and billions of stars in our universe?

Now I believe there is only 1 god because if there were more than one I think we'd notice some kind of struggle/conflict between gods (think greek mythology). And according to my beliefs; God made man the only creature held accountable for his actions simply to prove a point to Satan who defied him. So imagine if every couple of days some god defied another. We'd definitely see some weird stuff on this planet.

Now about Heaven & Hell, I believe in Heaven and Hell simply because I believe in what I previously stated. God created man, satan defied god in saying he'd make men deny god. So when someone denies the existence of God, its like offending the highest power and making satan win over god. And I think that clearly explains why God created Hell, a place where people who failed him can be punished, which makes perfect sense to me; if I were to walk up to DaVinci and tell him I'm gonna attribute his art to someone else and in time the Mona Lisa is attributed to David Blaine, wouldn't that make DaVinci mad. Besides, in the case of God, God is helping man.

And also how do you explain tens of people popping up throughout history with the exact same message: worship God ? If I'm willing to believe such a person then he'd have probably been better off claiming he's a god rather than just a prophet.

You're basically wrong and your logic is flawed, but the only part I wish to argue is the first.

Just because we haven't found life on other planets doesn't mean there isn't any. Once you comprehend the magnitude of the universe, this will make more sense.

At the moment we can only detect the existence of certain chemical compounds on other planets, when we can see the planets at all. Stars tend to make it almost impossible to see the planets that orbit them, so the best way of detecting them at the moment is by monitoring the positional wobble of the parent stars due to orbiting masses. That is a long cry from being able to detect life on them.

That is a distance problem, because our only means of measurement is e-m radition. Along with distance comes time. Light doesn't travel very fast, relatively speaking. The time it takes for light to travel from another solar system's planet to here can be up to the age of the universe. So it's possible that at the time the light set off on its journey, life didn't exist. It could exist right at this moment, but without faster than light travel, it's impossible to tell. At this point we are the caveman, looking out of his cave entrance, wondering what lies beyond.

The second time problem is what we're trying to detect. The SETI project is trying to detect e-m signals from other planets in the radio spectrum. I believe this is to be a bit of a foolish effort, but I guess there's no real harm in trying because we will learn something from it. Man has only been emitting signals powerful enough to reach into space for under 100 years. That is so incredibly insignificant it's almost incomprehensible. Now to think that an advanced civilisation existed on another planet billions of years before us (because the signal has to travel) with technological capabilities equal or better to us and those signals have reached us intact above the other interferance of the universe... well... it's fairly preposterous and in no way shape or form proof of anything other than we're still relatively cavemen.

[cocklove4headcheese]

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

I came to the conclusion that there is a god at all simply because some things in life are just too beautiful to be created by a cosmic accident. Its like looking at a painting that you know must have an artist.

I see your point but then what about the things that would be too horrific to be created by a god ? Nature is full of failed experiments. It's a battle of forces that can end in infinite ways. Things constantly change and we humans remain flawed in body and mind throughout our entire existence. And it's normal. It wouldn't work any other way. Imagine "life" as a force that adapts to hostile environments by continually correcting it's flaws.

Look at the whole picture and consider both the good and the bad. You'll find that they are inseparable. Now I agree that something wonderful makes you want to believe that it was made on purpose, but that's just humans' desire to find a convenient explanation for it. People always look for simple answers that can be understood without thinking. People are LAZY. "God created everything in 6 days" is a lot nicer to go with than learning and employing logic, while facing the truth that we are alone and utterly helpless in so many ways.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

And why is there only one Earth? If it was created by a simple cosmic accident, with nothing having any hand in its creation, why doesn't the cosmic accident repeat itself with the billions and billions of stars in our universe?

There might be life in our own solar system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon) That's a big "might", but other planets that could sustain life have already been discovered. Also, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjVoUZL0KAI Now tell me, all that space for some silly, savage creatures on one planet ? No offense but it is INSANE to think that we're the only ones out there.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

Now I believe there is only 1 god because if there were more than one I think we'd notice some kind of struggle/conflict between gods (think greek mythology).

Gods ought to be wiser than that. Or are they supposed to argue by default ? Silly greek mythology has nothing to do with reality and petty squabbles shouldn't be in a god's resume. Forget about ancient stories and search for what modern thinkers have to say. Trust me, they'll make a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

And according to my beliefs; God made man the only creature held accountable for his actions simply to prove a point to Satan who defied him. So imagine if every couple of days some god defied another. We'd definitely see some weird stuff on this planet.

So who made God and Satan ? My answer is: humans. But assuming they exist... we suffer and fight and love and die just so that God can try to prove a point to an asshole ? Are you happy with being a test subject ? Is that really all you are ?

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

Now about Heaven & Hell, I believe in Heaven and Hell simply because I believe in what I previously stated. God created man, satan defied god in saying he'd make men deny god. So when someone denies the existence of God, its like offending the highest power and making satan win over god.

I'm still waiting for you to describe Heaven and Hell, but now I also want you to describe Satan. Why is he so naughty and why doesn't God just get rid of him ?

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

And I think that clearly explains why God created Hell, a place where people who failed him can be punished, which makes perfect sense to me;

We're talking eternal punishment, right ? But isn't a god supposed to be forgiving ? Cause not even humans would be capable of something as sadistic as torturing their peers "forever". THIS concept of God is a total mess. He would be either insane or pure evil.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

if I were to walk up to DaVinci and tell him I'm gonna attribute his art to someone else and in time the Mona Lisa is attributed to David Blaine, wouldn't that make DaVinci mad.

Yes but a god is supposed to be a lot better than us. Again, this kind of thinking just shows how a human is projecting his own flaws upon an imagined higher being.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

Besides, in the case of God, God is helping man.

What are you talking about ? The best people can come up with to prove that is to say they hear voices. And that is simply not convincing in the face of all the proof that says we're on our own.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

And also how do you explain tens of people popping up throughout history with the exact same message: worship God ?

The explanation is that they are simple minded individuals who let their judgement be controlled by emotions. They want attention and fame because they feel insignificant. It's all wishful thinking caused by their inability to face their own mortality. Someone who's so good at lying to himself has no difficulty in manipulating those who are easily impressed.

Originally Posted by The Heart Of Darkness

If I'm willing to believe such a person then he'd have probably been better off claiming he's a god rather than just a prophet.

I don't understand what you're saying there.

In conclusion, I think you should devote more time to examining the real world, cause otherwise you'll always live a lie. The universe is incredible and full of mysteries, but people like you who cling to simple answers, lies and false promises made by other humans (no god ever spoke to you in person), will never be any help to the rest of us who try to find the truth.
There's a constant war between those who want to evolve, and those who want piece of mind even if it means deceiving themselves. You'd better choose a side early in life.

[tisl]

cocklove4headcheese , people believe in religion because it serves them emotionally. Reality and conventional human emotions make for a pretty bleak existence. People are naturally focused on themselves, so when bad shit happens they think "This is hard. Why should I bother? Oh right, it's all part of God's plan". Unless you present a point of view that makes it worth getting up in the morning, religious people will remain religious regardless of the flaws in their logic that you find. (this worked pretty well for me).

[cocklove4headcheese]

Originally Posted by tisl

cocklove4headcheese , people believe in religion because it serves them emotionally.

They are religious because it helps them get their fears under control. But it's like taking a sedative. It's not a real cure for the problem. And there are millions of people who lead spiritual lives without being religious. How the heck do they manage that, eh ?

Originally Posted by tisl

Reality and conventional human emotions make for a pretty bleak existence.

For you maybe. Reality is incredibly fascinating, but you need courage and an open mind to fully experience it. Also, these conventional human emotions as you put it, don't feel conventional or ordinary to me. Love is the greatest thing I can ever hope for, as cheesy as it sounds. Love and reasoning create and protect life, while rigid thinking and fear lead to death.

Originally Posted by tisl

People are naturally focused on themselves, so when bad shit happens they think "This is hard. Why should I bother? Oh right, it's all part of God's plan".

Yes, that's what they do. It's a lot easier than blaming themselves for a failure, isn't it ? "Fuck the world ! It's nobody's fault that things are going badly, it's all God's plan ! Now, where was I ? Oh yeah, sitcoms !"
Yeah, that's how they think. It's childish, not to mention dangerous and counterproductive.

Originally Posted by tisl

Unless you present a point of view that makes it worth getting up in the morning, religious people will remain religious regardless of the flaws in their logic that you find.

I could say it isn't my duty to tell fools why to get up in the morning, but the truth is... it IS my duty. So I'll give you the simple reason why I fight.

I want the best for this world and the people I care about. Why ? Because I can appreciate being alive. I can appreciate how complex and unique we are, and it's something I want to preserve. And most important of all, I think that conscious beings like us are in fact the mind of the universe. And that's a position not to be taken lightly.

[farsimon]

IMO (and I have put a lot of thought into it over the years) the argument about whether religion is crap or not is actually moot. Religion is useful for 2 reasons:

1. Control - Without these little rules (and I'm talking about the "do onto others" type rules that betters civilisation) we would never have gotten out of our caves in the first place. These principles are abundant in all religions and have a very strong correlation to our basic instinct to survive. Where does control come in? The human race is split between leaders and followers. Leaders think for themselves and generally think for others as well. These are the guys who take the risks, find the food and bring it back to the cave and fucks the best chicks in the clan. The followers are the guys sweeping the floors, carrying the food around, and taking out the shit. The followers does not have the capacity for greater thinking - especially the bigger picture - thus causing them to think in much smaller intervals, from "hungry -> eat" to "bus fare -> go home" with no real clue as to the more complex. These lower life forms also have a reduced ability for self control - like beasts - which along with the lack of forward thinking, causes them to steal and kill like barbarians without any real concept of "what it does to others", since they never could grasp the value of life in the first place. This is where religion comes in. Paint a couple of elementary pictures, put some easy to follow guidelines in place, and threaten then with eternal damnation, and even the most basic creature can survive in society.

2. Coping - Religion is a pretty damn efficient coping tool for many reasons. No one has to ever deal with their problems if they don't have the capacity - I mean, it's just so much easier to just refer to god by saying:

a) It's just god testing you
b) god will provide
c) It's god's plan
d) etc

I agree with cockcheese and Bored, except for the following:

Beware of taking religion away from the masses: they are not prepared for life without it. It's one thing trying to prove them wrong and watch them squirm as they try to make sense of it. But if you rip it out of their minds the world would collapse quicker than a wet fart sneaking into your pants because they are not ready - and will never be, no matter how much you try to educate them. Remember - without the uneducated, who would oil the gears of society (all those messy shit jobs that us evolved creatures cringe at doing - and in most cases are not even aware of).

[cocklove4headcheese]

farsimon, I agree.
I am not trying to take away religion, I know that's impossible. But I know the world is full of undecided people who only need a jolt in the right direction. They'll eventually leave behind the stone age mentality and start to look for some real answers.

[farsimon]

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

farsimon, I agree.
I am not trying to take away religion, I know that's impossible. But I know the world is full of undecided people who only need a jolt in the right direction. They'll eventually leave behind the stone age mentality and start to look for some real answers.

It would be easy once there are real answers.

[cocklove4headcheese]

There are answers but some of them are very painful to accept. So people take the blue pill and stay in dreamland.
It's easy for them to feed the illusion when everyone else is doing the same.

[future man]

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

There are answers but some of them are very painful to accept. So people take the blue pill and stay in dreamland.
It's easy for them to feed the illusion when everyone else is doing the same.

I'm not religious at all, but people who take this attitude are more often than not self loathing jerk offs who really just can't stand to see anyone else be happy.

You come across as a total tool. Shut the fuck up and let people enjoy whatever makes them happy. What is it driving you to pursue some pointless personal quest to shit all over something that really has no effect on you? Unless those fucking colonists are trying to kill you unless you convert, you really have no reason to bitch about someones beliefs.

[cocklove4headcheese]

Originally Posted by future man

I'm not religious at all, but people who take this attitude are more often than not self loathing jerk offs who really just can't stand to see anyone else be happy.

You come across as a total tool. Shut the fuck up and let people enjoy whatever makes them happy.

Is that your philosophy ? Happy at all costs ? Come on, say something intelligent. Every smartass can say "fuck" and "jerk off" but it never made a discussion more interesting.

[MrBored]

I want to take away religion, execute the people who aren't ready for that and replace them with honda robots.

[The Heart Of Darkness]

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

I see your point but then what about the things that would be too horrific to be created by a god ? Nature is full of failed experiments. It's a battle of forces that can end in infinite ways. Things constantly change and we humans remain flawed in body and mind throughout our entire existence. And it's normal. It wouldn't work any other way. Imagine "life" as a force that adapts to hostile environments by continually correcting it's flaws.

So it does correct its flaws

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

There might be life in our own solar system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon) That's a big "might", but other planets that could sustain life have already been discovered. Also, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjVoUZL0KAI Now tell me, all that space for some silly, savage creatures on one planet ? No offense but it is INSANE to think that we're the only ones out there.

If scientists are ever able to experimentally recreate the big bang, I'm pretty sure that with today's modern technology they'd be able to create rock and soil out of burning gases, however I'm pretty much sure that they cannot create life out of nothingness.

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

I'm still waiting for you to describe Heaven and Hell, but now I also want you to describe Satan. Why is he so naughty and why doesn't God just get rid of him ?

Can't decribe em cuz I've never been there, sorry

Satan is naughty cuz he's just as liable to be arrogant as any one of us is, and God doesn't get rid of satan because he challenged god.

Imagine it went like this:

Satan: God, I spit on your creation and I promise you if you'll just keep me alive to the end of time I'll mess up your petty humans
God: No deal. Burn Infidel.

But it doesn't go like this because even though God has given Satan a chance to corrupt humans, he also simultaneously gave humans a shot at immortality.

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

We're talking eternal punishment, right ? But isn't a god supposed to be forgiving ? Cause not even humans would be capable of something as sadistic as torturing their peers "forever". THIS concept of God is a total mess. He would be either insane or pure evil.

God forgives all sins except the sin of denial, like I said before, denying God is like disappointing God, proving him wrong against a lower being (Satan). Frankly God's anger is quite understandable.

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

What are you talking about ? The best people can come up with to prove that is to say they hear voices. And that is simply not convincing in the face of all the proof that says we're on our own.

Then why are they having the same hallucination? And why aren't there new people nowadays coming up with new hallucinations? I'm pretty sure the world still hasn't run out of simple minded individuals who let their judgement be controlled by emotions, who want attention and fame because they feel insignificant.

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

I don't understand what you're saying there.

I'm saying that if someone is going to be running around saying he's a prophet sent by God to mankind, why couldn't he just say something more fancy like:

-I am God's incarnation on Earth
-I am God's son
-I am the human avatar of all that is good

Heck, if you're gonna believe he's a prophet, then you'll believe anything else he says

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

In conclusion, I think you should devote more time to examining the real world, cause otherwise you'll always live a lie. The universe is incredible and full of mysteries, but people like you who cling to simple answers, lies and false promises made by other humans (no god ever spoke to you in person), will never be any help to the rest of us who try to find the truth.
There's a constant war between those who want to evolve, and those who want piece of mind even if it means deceiving themselves. You'd better choose a side early in life.

The last thing I'd like to say is this:

I live my life to the fullest and I see no difference in lifestyle between myself and any other person who does not believe in God. So I stand to lose nothing by believing in God; if I die and there's a heaven/hell hopefully I'll be dropped by at heaven where I would enjoy some free no-monthly fee completely non bugged version of WoW , and if there is no such thing as heaven/hell/God I'll be dead anyways so I wouldn't care.

[future man]

Originally Posted by cocklove4headcheese

Is that your philosophy ? Happy at all costs ? Come on, say something intelligent. Every smartass can say "fuck" and "jerk off" but it never made a discussion more interesting.

Intelligent? Not the thread for it, by reading over the majority of the previous posts. You're basically recycling tired points that've been mulled over thousands of times. Also, no, that isn't my philosophy, I just don't see why people put on a banner that says "LOL IM RIGHT" and run around screaming at everyone else about how terribly wrong they are.

You don't seem to have any real stance other than being overly motivated to go after someone's beliefs even though it's having no negative impact on you. Unless the impact is you're having to listen to all the religious drivel you think is wrong, in which case you should probably try to direct your focus more inwardly than going over everyone elses beliefs with such a fine toothed comb.

Originally Posted by MrBored

I want to take away religion, execute the people who aren't ready for that and replace them with honda robots.

I want to take away alcohol and execute the people who aren't read for that and replace them with honda robots. You bitterfuck drunk.

[MrBored]

I've been sober for 2 days, asshole.

[future man]

Originally Posted by MrBored

I've been sober for 2 days, asshole.

[cocklove4headcheese]

Originally Posted by future man

What is it driving you to pursue some pointless personal quest to shit all over something that really has no effect on you?

Coupled with your friendly attitude, this makes you appear really stupid. The things people believe in shape their every action. Their behavior changes their environment and others around them. You're a big boy so think of an example yourself.

What is this, grade school ? Are you living in a bubble ? I hate it when I have to explain basic concepts to loudmouth bullies like you.

Originally Posted by future man

Unless those fucking colonists are trying to kill you unless you convert, you really have no reason to bitch about someones beliefs.

So I shouldn't be concerned with anything unless it tries to kill me ? Sounds like shallow, politically correct bullshit to me.